thanks for the link. there are, as the study understood from the beginning, significant class differences today (not so much in past generations) as well as ethnic differences about the appropriateness f physical means of discipline.

the statistic I found the most shocking was that the parents who reported spanking a toddler between the age one one and two years reported it on average 2.6 times a WEEK! now that may mean one slap on the hand or butt, rather than an old fashioned whack-whack-whack, but two to three times a week (going up to an average of a whole three times a week for the two and three year olds?) that's every other day...no wonder some kids grow up thinking spanking is love; it's a regular occurrence.

now I'm not African American, and I have worked as a teacher and counselor with lots and lots of kids, from preschool to high school, and adult school, who are. the discipline issues come up all the time, and they require the greatest delicacy on the part of the teachers. I'd really love to get together with a friend who IS African American to talk about this, and to talk about ways that maybe an African American can teach other African American parents more about gentle guidance and discipline approaches, I do understand that there is a legacy of people who are perceived as "white" telling African Americans how to live, and certainly a history of all kinds of violence toward African Americans perpetuated by "white" people, and it makes for an understandable defensiveness. I've had non-Black friends who lost their high-profile, responsibility-bearing jobs in multiracial childcare and education settings for suggesting that getting pastspanking was somethng that would benefit ALL children.

so I'd love it if I could talk with my friends who are parents, and people of color, and people who have found alternatives to using almost constant physical discipline, about ways to bring this message home to their communities.
the problems isn't limited to Black families, of course. there are some class implications that I think are at least as powerful as the ethnic ones.

i also have to wonder, some, whether the lack of reasoning used in the families who spank regularly in this study has to do with, some PARENTS just never learned to think and reason either? so how are they going to teach their children to do so? the old, rude, politically incorrect way to state it is to say, "stupid people spank their kids."

I can speak as a teacher. I'm around kids every day and I see the results of what goes on at home. harsh discipline doesn't work in the longer run. there are some real behavior problems, and I deal with them almost every day, in the children who have never learned to reason out why something is not a good idea, because the only "reason" they have ever been given for stopping something that is dangerous or disruptive or unfair is "because I'll slap you upside the head if you do it again!" the kids get to school, or day camp, or the library, and even if we thought it appropriate, we have to use words, rules, and norms to get them to not destroy the art supplies or the garden, quiet down when someone is trying to speak, keep their hands to themselves (as we say) and they run absolutely amok.

one of the schools I've worked at, where I had a LOT of kids who come from these "slap you" backgrounds, put it well when they said there are really three guiding principles for making rules - we need to be SAFE for ourselves and others, we need to be KIND, and we need to be CLEAN. (I'd argue that CLEAN is a subset of being KIND and SAFE - we need to prevent disease and not make extra work for other people.) so we can't call people names because it's UNKIND, we need to use the toys and climbing equipment SAFELY which might mean there are ways we can't play with them or on them, and we can't throw paint around or throw paper wads across the room because it makes a mess.

now where does spanking it into being KIND or SAFE?