I'm jewish but anticirc, I do think really well intentioned intactivists get so shrill they lose their potential audience sometimes. my rabbi friend, Hanan Slll once said the whole world, and the jewish world, was so turned upside down by the Holocaust that as arabbi he totally supported anyone's questioning the rite of religious circ. there's a book called Questioning Circumcision; A Jewish Perspectve, by Ron Goldman (I think, should check the author) that explores a lot of these issues.

need to get going ehre but will gladly join this discussion later: maybe tonight?

So then, I suppose female circumcision is OK since that is also someone's beliefs?

At what point do we draw the line?

well, call me ignorant though i've almost undoubtedly read the same texts as most jews 9my hebrew isnlt all that good though.). I'm jewish and I don;t understand the the covenant bwtween Abraham and Gd to be a iteral commandment in the 21st century; we don;t sacrifice animals any more although the Bible/Torah is filled with descriptions of all the horrible things that happened to high priests and all the othrs who didn; follo the exactprocedure for the Holies of Holies.

I'm Jewish and anti circ. I find the tone here really strident and off-puting. I;ve ehard the same defense f corportal punishment of children...the fact is, the nervous system of "my baby" isn;t mne...it;s m baby's. those of us who choose not o inflict unnecessary pain r virtually immutable changes are, at elast most of the time, acting on our own moral judgment, which often stems from the same surces as deeply held religious convictions. I don;t like seeing anyone's butt get whacked. I don;t like seeing the tip of anyone's penis excised. some would argue that ur chidlren are not :ours" to do whatever we wish, but I really have had people tell me that if it;s "their" child, i;s "their" right to smack the child for any o a number of supposed offenses...and yes, the Bible praises this too in places, jsut as it praises slavery.

">> Would I be considered ignorant for not respecting someone religion when I don't think it's a good enough reason to mutilate a baby's penis?<<

In a word, yes.

For Jews, circumcision represents the covenant with Abraham and G-d. In Islam, hadith also mentions circumcision and many Muslims are also circumcised. So are a lot of Orthodox Christians and Copts.

Not your baby. Not your beliefs."

I did say before that intactivists shoor themswelves in the foot sometiems with their own stridency, unfortunately; people get defensive whenyou all them "mutilators" and "abusers." I recommend the gentle aproach John RObbins takes explaining his vegan practices to meat eaters.."I understand that what you feel amtters to you, because I once felt the same. I know that some very good people have chosen o circumcise their children, for reasons that make sense to them. and I do feel it's time to learn anther way." there are alternative baby blessings to welcome chidlren, male and female, into ha Amo Yisrael.

except for the most strictly observant of Orthodox Jews, let's face it, most jewish people don;t follow all the mitvot, so i do find it a bi specious to grab on circumcising briot milah as if it is the one thing that makes us jewish...do you follow every dietary law? avoid all work on the Sabbath? celebrate Havdallah to end the Sabbath every week? cut yor hair and trim your fingernails only in accordance with jewish law? never mix linen and woll? the list goes on and on, quite frankly...
hey, in the jewish community where I worship, a lay leader brught a evice into the community that is used by rabbis, and others in our largely lay congregation,for men who never had the ritual brit whether they are hospital circumcised or not. it;s some little spring-loaded contraption that draws THREE DROPS of blood for the certificate and satisfies the commandment for circumcision. there you go...THREE DROPS and it;s perfectly acceptable to the Gd these people understand to have an dult hoose this of his own free will to be welcomed into the community...soif that;s so, why not leave the little babies who really don;t know why theya re being carved up ALONE and let them decide to do this convenanting ceremony that ony requires a nick when they are adolescents (Bar Mitzvah age?) or adult enough to understand what theya re choosing?

oh yeah what judith said!

<<what im trying to say is you wouldn't come off as ignorant for not acceptaing someones beliefs you would come off like an asshole,>>

Wow, just wow.

Is that really necessary?