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well we've discussed vaccination now hows about we talk about fluoride? there was some discussion over on ppm and mamas were talking about giving their kids fluoride (or not, and feeling guilty about it). i was honestly shocked! i've avoided fluoride at all costs- not in toothpaste, not at the dentist, and have made it a point to live where we have well or spring water. although i'd love for my kids not to rebel, i'd rather not give them rat poison to make them complacent, and i'm pretty sure their pineal glands are where it's at. but maybe i'm wrong? do you guys do fluoride in any form?
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 7:20 AMNope, none of that. But I have no reading to recommend or anything. I good freind of mine is a doctor and gave me a few articles she had from medical journals that were about how flouride was harmful- I wish I had made copies!
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 7:24 AMfor the most part, no. I didn't think i would and it's not in our water but my son started developing multiple "pre" cavities and so i'm willing to use a flouride toothpaste for a little while until he gets older and will brush his teeth better and with more regularity.
From your post i'd say you have strong feelings on it and are following them. Why worry about what others are doing? If you've researched your decision and are comfortable with it don't let it bother you. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 9:46 AMGood point Jessica,
though I can relate to that feeling of knowing there's always more information out there.
As with vaccines, it's really hard to know what is truly safe or not safe.
But from everything I read about fluoride, IF it has a role to play in dental health, it's in toothpaste and treatments at the dentist.
Adding it to drinking water is about as useful as drinking very diluted white-out to whiten your teeth. If the stuff doesn't have direct, concentrated contact, it's useless. (assuming it's useful in the first place)
It sounds like it can be useful in some circumstances, but too much can end up making teeth brittle and more prone to breakage.
Complicated stuff. Personally, we get well water from my mom's house so none of us drink our fluoridated tap water. But sometimes at the dentist I let them do the fluoride goo soak. Still figuring out my big picture plan. Which may still change.
I'm a lot more interested in the role nutrition plays in dental health. I've read that saliva that contains enough Vitamin K2 will protect teeth from decay. I recently read Weston A Price's book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, and I'm working on figuring out how to use the information in my daily life. We switched to raw milk from grassfed cows last year, we're making sauerkraut and such, and I'm starting to eat some local meats after a lifetime of being vegetarian... fascinating stuff. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 10:08 AMFrom what I have read in medical journals, what was believed to be true about flouride no longer is, it is just taking taime to spread the word and change our ways. It is now believed that flouride actually leads to increased pits in teeth as well as graying of teeth. The dentist we see does not recommend using any amount of flouride. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 10:43 AMOur water is not fluoridated. I think the fear is that if you are using fluoridated water AND giving supplements then their is the chance that the child will get too much. But, if your water is not fluoridated and you are no longer breastfeeding like you do in the first 6 months then giving a supplement in juice or water is very safe and effective.
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 12:48 PMjessica,
it's not that i worry about what others are doing, it's just that when i've researched it, i think i've come from a place of
'fluoride is bad." and we know how easy it is to find information on the net to reinforce our biases. i guess it just made me question whether or not i had done that, or was truly being objective. and it's funny, but i trust what you all say here way more than i trust the official position, so thanks! -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 10:07 PMI try to avoid the web pages that are polarized for or against the practice. Those are full of misrepresentations and outright fallacies. I think the "York Review" remains the most complete and objective source of information on effects of fluoridation:
www.bmj.com/cgi/content/.../321/7265/855
www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluorid.htm
www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluoridnew.htm
www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/pdf/summary.pdf
This more recent review also has an interesting perspective
www.springerlink.com/content...2371167/
By the way, relying on well water will not necessarily reduce exposure to fluoride. Fluoride occurs in all natural waters, and in some groundwater the concentration exceeds what you would find in a fluoridated community water supply. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Thu, January 8, 2009 - 9:06 AMChris, as I understand it, naturally occurring fluoride is substantially different from the industrial byproduct fluoride that is added to municipal systems.
That is a good reminder to get her well tested. I've been meaning to for years now. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Sat, January 10, 2009 - 3:53 PMFixit, that's an interesting point. I believe the free fluoride ions themselves have the same health effects (good or bad) regardless of the source, but unintended byproducts like silicoflourides in municipal supplies have been concern.
www.dartmouth.edu/~news/rel...uride.html
Still, I don't see a private water supplies as having a clear advantage. I'm a geochemist and hydrologist by trade and I have seen a lot of contaminated waters coming out of people's private water supplies. They tend to tap shallower and more vulnerable sources and are rarely monitored.
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 9:45 AMI use fluoride drops. I think dental health is important and so I do the drops in their juice/water a few times per week. It's not for the teeth they have it's for their adult teeth. It's beneficial and really helps their teeth get strong and healthy. It was highly recommended by both the doctors and dentist. I would not recommend putting fluoride directly on baby teeth because it's not for their current teeth it's for the adult teeth. It can cause staining if you put the drops directly on teeth. Using the recommended dosage or a little less than that is safe.
I just got a script for baby G and I'm going to start them in the next couple weeks. Emma and Lucas use fluoridated toothpaste and sometimes I still give them drops, too for the teeth that still aren't in yet.
Here is some information from Dr. Sears. He recommends it but only in certain circumstances.
www.askdrsears.com/html/3/t030900.asp
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 11:09 AMI find the evidence abuot fluoride is another one of those controversial things. I;ve read plenty pro (which is the official dental position) and con. and I can really speak from my own experience but it;s only that...I come from a family very prone to dental problems, and I was HEAVILY fluoridated as a child: got the fluoride paint treatment, prescription fluoride rinses, fluoride toothpaste, adn the Arrowhead water with added fluoride (although I think it was added to our municipal tap water anyway.)
the good news? no additional ehalth problems from fluoride "poisoning."
the not so good news: my adult teeth are VERY prone to decay, and Weston Price be damned, i DON'T think it;s because of my vegetarian diet. (no one in my family of origin besides me is vegetarian and they all have had serious dental problems throughout life too.)
now I AM starting to think that either cod liver oil, like they used in my parents' generation (I'm over 50 myself) or incrased sunexposure for natural Vitamin D may help with cavity prevention. have read some epidemiology on this but it;s not very conclusive. I'm not convinced any other form of supplementation does all that much re Vit D absorption.
i do have strong bones...no fractures ever... no fractures ever except maybe a broken toe, thoug I;m pretty active (which probab,y improves bone health) adn do seem to fall off things and do minor smash-ups on myself periodically, as I have throughout life.
I also think ther;s a big difference between drinking water with naturally occurring fluoride as a mineral ion, and adding it to drinking water and medications, though i don't have any ahrd evidence to support this either: we jsut know that even inorganic minerals act differntly when obtained from water extracting them from naturally presnt rock than from adding them in "purified" form.
here's also what little I knowbiochemically: fluoride substitutes chemcially for calcium in bone and similar substances (e.g., tooth enamel) but it is not the same. Minerals work togethr in bodily growth processes, and calcium ion is sometimes liberated from bone (and I imagine teeth - I;ve stuidied anatomy and physiology but I'm a little weak on some of the tooth development stuff, quite honestly) becuase it is needed in the bloodstrrream to perform other functions including maintaining nerve and msucle function, regularing hormiones, etc...fluoride does not work in those kinds of calcium applications, so it might remain in bone or tooth but won;t be as dynamic for otehr needed functions. we tend to think of the skeletal system as being hard and dry and "already formed" including out teeth but in faqct they are living tissue that is constantly being broken down and re-formed jsut like softer tissue or our blood 9which si also a tissue.)
si I'm less alarmist than some of my other antural-medicine friends about fluoride but I am also skeptical about it being the :Wonder substance" it was proclaimed in my childhood and beyond. -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 11:16 AMToo much of anything isn't good. I think if you give the correct amount it can be VERY beneficial. It sounds like you were over fluoridated. (if that's a word)
My county does NOT add fluoride to the water. So, I do drops in their juice when I remember. It's definitely NOT daily. Maybe 10x per month.
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 11:44 AMJudith,
"now I AM starting to think that either cod liver oil, like they used in my parents' generation (I'm over 50 myself) or increased sun exposure for natural Vitamin D may help with cavity prevention."
Those are also items on the list of things Price recommends!
And not just any meat, but animals who lived outdoors eating the fresh growing plants their bodies need.
He did study some healthy cultures who ate very little meat, but plenty of fresh milk from healthy animals- and raw cheeses and good eggs.
I don't mean to say that no meat=tooth decay. That part of my decision had a few other factors that tipped the scale for me personally.
Add me to the list of people who got the recommended amount of fluoride/treatments growing up, but still had rampant tooth decay! -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 12:23 PMEveryones teeth are different too! I have weak enamel and am cavity prone though I brush, floss, and dont eat sweets. My father had it too. And I had regular dental care as a child. As a toddler, I had 23 cavities!
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 12:56 PMMaria,
From everything I've read your concerns and actions are well warranted. The three studies that the ADA and CDC rely on were funded by the Aluminum smelting industry and their data grossly misconstrued to serve the agenda of that industry. If one were to independently analyze the data from, say, the WHO it is obvious that the rate of dental carries has decreased globally in communities regardless of water fluoridation. What is not discussed by the CDC or ADA is the fact that rates of dental and skeletal fluorosis, dental and skeletal fractures and cancer rates are significantly higher in communities with fluoridation compared to communities without. It is interesting to note that the ADA, CDC and Public Health Department officials and representatives in my local community and many other communities refuse and avoid at all cost open public debate on the subject data. Seems the can and will only offer the same repetitive, regurgitated rhetoric found on their websites, unable to stray from the script and address any pertinent questions.
You may find this posting from another fellow tribe member in another forum poignant, as did I.
For anyone else wondering about fluorides ability to concentrate in and cause calcification of the pineal gland please refer to these fully linked and cited studies:
www.fluoridealert.org/health/pineal/
Fluorides effects on the developing brain:
www.fluoridealert.org/translations.html -
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Wed, January 7, 2009 - 4:08 PMfor some reason the link didn't show up in the previous post...
cuchi.tribe.net/thread/656...a20708965c4
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Sun, January 11, 2009 - 10:15 AMYes we avoid fluride at all costs too! I've actually read that the fluoride was first put in the water in Nazi Germany to help control the population!
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Re: ok, now fluoride...
Sun, January 11, 2009 - 11:32 AMI found this interview to be very enlightening. I don't allow any fluoride treatments for my sons or myself. Understanding the history of the use of Sodium Flouride in our tap water makes for a more informed decision. And this IS something you should look into!
video.google.com/videosearch